Secular Charlotte Mason

Testing to make sure I have this set up correctly for Friday's discussion.

The following is something very important for ME to remember.  Especially since the only thing that is going really well right now in our homeschool is reading to my 6 yo son.  Everything else is a sprinkling, hardly seems like he's learning the 3Rs but he is in tiny little pieces.  I must resist that urge to drill him to "keep up" with other kids in public school.

From Page 36 "For some reason or other, Americans bear the dubious reputation of overkill if they are aiming too narrowly at an excellent education.  First of all, the educational vision is too frequently factual information alone, rather than the ideas or big general picture. Look at tests from 3rd Grade to postgraduate education.  Facts, Facts, Facts.  And so teachers and children, cram, cram, cram (and forget, forget, forget).  Too often children discover that they learn merely to pass a test, get a grade, and then no one cares.  This approach is a profound contrast to Charlotte Mason's.  In PNEU schools the learning -- real learning -- happened when a child was interested in the material.  It stirred their imaginations.  They told back what they learned in their own words.....   People today are making a colossal pedagogical error.  They are rather like an uneducated person who thinks that if one spoon of medicince will do good, then ten are even better!  Many children are being given far too many hours of instruction per day."

From Page 33 "If these teachers are careful to choose books that catch the children's interest and imagination, they and the class are well in to accomplishing their goals.  Slavishing following a set of curriculum if it doesn't fit a class, situation or child is a legalistic folly.  Get 'shining eyes' first, and the coveted question "Can't you read more?' will come. This question shows that what you are doing is succeeding.  As children become interested, chapter by chapter, they will form new habits.  It won't seem like work at all!  They like listening, imagining, thinking.  These activities are satisfying.  If Children are given a diet of dry facts, and information is read to them from books they cannot understand, if they are overworked and stressed, they will simply switch off.  They become discouraged ('I'm Dumb') or decide 'It's boring,' or just be tired and lose interest and motivation.  One of the beauties of a curriculum based on "living books" is that nothing is twaddle.  Living books have literary power; they have 'soul.' The writers have put their hearts into these books.  As vital thought touches our minds, our ideas are vitalized, and out of our ideas come our conduct of life."

If I try to push the public school model on my son, he shuts down and gets discouraged.  If I read to him from living books, he's a firecracker.  It's truly amazing.  I'm sure I'm "preaching to the choir" with this passage. LOL   I will post another that really struck me from the 1st chapter...  If we are to do something else in this book discussion, please let me know.  I've always had book discussions in person vs. on-line.

No worries Chai Mama. This format of book discussion is totally new to me as well. We'll just feel our way through it lol.

Your son sounds just like my KodyGirl. If she if thinks it is "school" she shuts down but if I just let her read or read to her or do practical activities then she lights up and wants to know more. I have to constantly remind myself to do as much CM as possible with her but it is a challenge when we are in a situation where she doesn't have the same "facts" as other kids present....even though I know her understanding of what she knows is much deeper than just reciting facts. She may not be able to tell you a lot of historical facts from the 1800s (ie who was president, when was the civil war, etc.) but she can totally tell you all about pioneer and Native American life from that time period.  My son was similar when he was younger. I have to admit that my middle child has never been like this. She wants just the facts with no extras and she *hates* living books of any kind although she will read mythology.

I'm still trying to find my copy of the book so that I can reread it so I do apoligize for not having any profound insights at this point lol.I can't wait to hear what other folks think of the book. It truly is one of my favorites.

Just a reminder that this discussion will be more dynamic if we have participants rather than lurkers. I'm just saying.... 

If I try to push the public school model on my son, he shuts down and gets discouraged. If I read to him from living books, he's a firecracker.

This is *exactly* what Rod keeps finding, Chai mama!  I think it's endemic to anyone who was "schooled" in the USian way.  I also think it passes as you get the "shining eyes". 

I have eben reading Jack's bedtime story since he was old enough to sit in my lap, and I did the same with my older kids only to see the light go out mid-way through the forst semester of first grade, so I got hooked on the "glow" of good learning.  I also am only with jack a few hours a day -- I wonder if I'd have more trouble if I was on full time. 

As to the format of a book discussion -- this is my first since the classroom, so I am happy to do what y'all want to do.  I am just so excited to have "friends' who get it. 

Are there any chapters/writers that have really grabbed your attention so far?

Deleting this after getting a response in the other topic.  Hmmm. will post something from the book soon.

I keep thinking about this passage which Marion Berry wrote about her retirement years working with underpriveleged children.

"I can still see people in my cozy sitting room: Stephen ensconced in a small fireside chair utterly entranced with Watership Down.  I did most of the reading and he took up the final two paragraphs of each chapter, managing passably well.  Sometimes the whole hour was spent like this; sometimes I sensed one chapter was enough.  On one occasion, "What's next?" brought the answer, "Game of Scrabble with 'Moonlight Sonata' on the record player."  Once they had got to know my range I let them choose what to do.  I can see Alex on the floor by the fire making up her mind which song to have, "Sur le Pont" or Au Clair de la Lune," singing softly to herself as she puts on the record.  And Jimmy streaking in at the front door, and by the time I've turned on the hall light he's got two chairs drawn up to the fire with a copy of 101 Dalmations on each.  We read the statutory chaper in the usual way.  He snapped the book shut and went to the bookcase saying, "Now poetry. Two each," handing out large anthologies.  We rearrange ourselves at the table and get on with the choosing.  He seemed a bit stuck. "What the matter? Can't you find one?"  "The trouble is I've got THREE."  "We could have extra you know."  And we're off, sometimes a verse each, sometimes each reading the whole of our chosen poem.  Later on he took to A Puffin Book of Verse.  Page 273, he said, It's really good.  And what did I find on page 273?  Psalm 23.  By the last few weeks he'd decided we must stop this haphazard choosing and go straight through.  "

I love this. It's so simple and so good.  Do you achieve this by encouraging them bit by bit?  Like forming new habits?  They learn to love it over time because you've added one thing at time so gently, dare I say sneaking it in, that they just adore it all?  I want to get more games that teach the 3Rs in a fun way.  I plan to play music while we play a game.   I've been changing the channel to classical masterpieces (digital cable) when they are playing with their toys and not watching the dumb cartoon.  They don't complain.   How do you go about setting up smooth and easy days like she described?

I'm still trying to figure out that whole "smooth and easy days" thing lol. I sometimes think it is a myth or that I have missed my window of opportunity lol. When I was talking with Catherine Levison,  she and I agreed that one aspect of CM most folks, including myself, overlook is how "easy" it can, and should, be. With a CM education we are not hitting the kids over the head with information or schoolwork (perhaps one of the biggest differences from TWTM) ; instead a CM education sets up an environment of learning where we do tend to "slip things in" as the kids are ready for them. I have finally come to the conclusion that a CM education feels less like "work" to the kids than other educational models. Another factor with CM is that so much of it can be incorporated into our daily lives that sometimes it feels like we aren't doing as much as we really are.

Another difference between, say TWTM and CM, is that TWTM emphasizes knowledge of facts about artists, classical musicians, and so on while CM's goals emphasize life-long appreciation for the arts rather than just knowledge of them. With CM it often is all about developing a **life long appreciation** for literature/books, the arts, handicrafts and so on. I was pleasantly surprised this summer when my punk-rock loving preteen confessed that she does actually like classical music. I think part of that is because we made it part of our lives and not just a subject to be studied or "learned".

Hope that all makes sense. I'm a few cups short of a full pot o' coffee this morning lol. (Will my family ever get over these colds?!)

Based on everything you have posted here and the SecularCM yahoo group I'd say you are well on your way to that goal of life-long appreciation with your boys!

Does someone have something they'd like to discuss in the book? Page numbers would be fine vs. typing the passage...

When I first read about "the child is a person," I thought "Duh" but then I read about how children were viewed and treated in Charlotte Mason's day and it makes more sense why it was so important to her to point this out.  Then as I read more about just how much meaning there is in that statement, I realize it does apply to me in what I think my child "should" be learning by a certain age.  This has been the biggest thing I've had to let go as I respect him as a person. 

The child is a person concept is one of the things about CM that really appealed to me in the beginning. It's one of the concepts I kept from our unschooling days but had a hard time fitting into our move into WTM. I think CM works for my family because of the emphasis on person combined with strong academics. I think it humanizes the academics while also keeping the children accountable and engaged in life.

It is interesting to think about how the concept of children as persons has changed through out the history of the world. I would not have made a good Victorian mother lol. It was very much a new concept during Ms. Mason's life.

My apologies for not joining the conversation in a very active way yet--I have to find time (and wheels) to get across toen to reclaim my copy of the book. (I had forgotten that I had loaned it to her a few weeks ago. But they decided to go with unschooling or deschooling for now.)

I agree that the child as a person is a big reason for the attractiveness of CM's methods. It was a very new cncept at the turn of last century -- but it's not as common now as one might suppose. Today instead of considering our children "blank slates" on whuich we may write our own will and underlings to be dealt with autocraticaly, we keep our 15 year olds from walking in the woods lest they be hurt rather than teaching them from very early how to intereact safely with the world. Either way, we're treating them as "other", rather than as equals in all but experience.

Don't feel bad Misti. I am *still* looking for my copy. I was looking something up in it before our turned the house upside down with our remodeling and vacation packing and I suspect I won't find it until I get every single book out of the project room. Anyway, just being about to discuss the topics that Chai Mama is reading is helpful for me.

You know, I never thought of the overprotectiveness of modern parents as a way of treating/thinking of our kids as "other". But you I realize that you are absolutely correct. One key part of CM's "child as person" philosophy is that she considered children to be much more competent than any of us realize. This also ties into why I prefer CM ideals over WTM. With WTM all responsibility for learning is put on the parent, but with CM the parent is mainly the facilitator and a good share of the responsibility for learning is placed squarely on the learner's shoulders. Like they say you can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink if they don't want to. ( I even have my own version of this saying just for Tide lol, since she often balks at being responsible for her own learning.)

Hope that makes sense. This migraine is making swiss cheese of my brain today.

Let me know when ya'll have the book....:)  I'm still reading Chapter 3.   Habits should be interesting to talk about.

Oh, habits is going to be a big help to me!  I did that very poorly with my older litter and am not really sure how to do better. 

Hey Chai Mama,

In your readings have you come across any great quotes that should be added to the quote discussion section of the forum? I have a feeling you are more inspired in this area than I currently am.

Yes, I've been thinking about habits quite a bit.  Slooowly going over the material these days but I've been distracted as you can probably tell from my facebook.

I'll post something today, I was just thinking I'd like to continue this discussion...  Do you gals have your books?

OK, here goes.  The part I liked about the "Education is a Discpline" section of Chapter 3 is that it mostly focuses on academic habits.  I find that when thinking about everyday habits (as part of parenting) it feels overwhelming.  The Simply CM DVD was helpful in stating that if you do one habit every 6 weeks it's much easier and more effective.  I also like Laying Down the Rails from Simply CM.  So I've been looking at that too while reading this book.

The training of the will is also something I am really thinking a lot about.  CM said a strong will can cure just about any problem.  This is worth pursing the idea of this and learning how to "teach" this habit.  I say this because alcoholism runs on both sides our families and it's something I worry about for my boys later in life... which I guess takes us to "life" instead of just academics.  It's all so intertwined.  This is a complicated endeavor, I think.  The idea of it seems so simple.  Implementing not so simple.  Right?

There are some suggestions in the book and I'll try to type those up soon but this has been what is on my mind...  Would love some thoughts.

I think that one of the reasons we find it so hard to train out children in good habits is that for the most part my generation and those coming after weren't taught how to develop good habits.  That I am finding it somewhat easier with my second litter reinforces this idea for me.  I struggled not terribly successfully with it with my older kids.  Having struggled to teach myself good habits, though, I am finding it easier to reinforce them with Jack. 

One thing I found made a profound difference for me was FlyLady, believe it or not.  Yes, her focus is on housework...but she explains her methods clearly and I fojdn that once i groked the method, it was very easy to transfer it to other, less mundane matters.

As an example -- school work.  Rod still feels that he has to have x number of hours to sit down and "do school" and if he can't devote those hours as a block, he and Jack don't seem to get anything done, so school is a once otr twice or twice a week thing.

But FlyLady says that if you peg it back incrementally, it never needs to be a big deal.  She also says that "perfection is the enemy of good". 

I have taken on th "projects" part of Jack's education since Rod still thinks "school means books" and he loves the projects, but he forgets that they're there. 

Taking the "give it 15 minutes" method, Jack and I manage to fit in a little schooling most days.  We find a word or three on a word search (his latest obsession), make an old sheet into an Akkadian robe and take some photos, or use cuisinairre rods to make a mockup of the floorplan of a Mesopotamian home.  (I knew that one was a success when a  race of giants moved in immediately!  Next to find some lego and try a more substantial home model.) 

We may get only one thing done per day, but we are making our way through the stack of projects pretty quickly with just the snippet of time we have available between dinner and bedtime.

CM said a strong will can cure just about any problem

This phrase jumped out at me as I read Chai Mama's post. I also truly believe this, esp. when I look at my extended family. As near as I can tell it isn't really intellegence, nor environmental opportunities, that create a successful adult. I know adults that were given every opportunity and have done very little with their lives, I know adults who are truly gifted that have ended up in jail, I also know people who have had severe learning or environmental problems yet these people went on to be very successful in their adult lives. The difference between those who succeeded and those who didn't came down to one thing: a strong will/strong drive to succeed on their own terms. As I look at my own kids who are intellegent and have had many advantages I wonder how in the world to instill a sense of drive and will in them; esp. my middle child who is strong willed but not in a way that will lead to success as near as I can tell. I'm still searching for the answer to this but my gut instinct tells me that it has a lot to do with the habits instilled during childhood.

Sure wish I could find my book so I could read this chapter!!! I must have leant it out since I can't find it anywhere. But I am excited because my copy of The Story of Charlotte Mason arrived today. It's a book that is referenced more than once in When Children Love to Learn.